380 or 9MM - OR?

For the general discussion of SCCY Industries firearms. Includes the SCCY CPX-1 & CPX-2 compact 9mm and CPX-3 subcompact .380 ACP handguns.

380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Pony Soldier » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:56 pm

It boils down to whatever firearm you feel most comfortable and compitent with.
.
This report has some interesting statistics regarding 'Incpacitation' per caliber - one shot.
The % might be enlightening as per caliber.
Look at the 22, 380, and 9mm among all those included in the results.
.
Information put together by a police firearms and tactics instructor after 10 years of collecting data.
.
handgun stopping power research

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alterna ... ping-power
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby HootmonSccy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:14 pm

The thing that most of these reports do not take into account is Region of the shooting related to caliber...
I would carry a .380 in Florida Year round, but probably (if other choices available) would not carry a .380 in the north during the winter when people are wearing multiple layers and leather coats.
So weather and region play a definite part in what caliber is reasonable to carry in an area...
Of course, in Florida, you can still run into a 6'7" 300# person which may make a smaller have lesser effect, but since most people wear light clothing 97% of the year due to the warm climate, a smaller caliber MAY be sufficient.
There is a consideration when carrying in a hot and humid climate that a smaller gun may be more comfortable and may be carried more consistently regardless of heat or lighter clothing options.
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Pony Soldier » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:36 pm

Ones ability to fire and recapture target after first shot sould be considered. With instruction, being proficient and comfortable with practice is necessary.
Refering to the study, a 22lr semi auto pistol would be a light carry accurate firearm re; 1.8 shot average to end the situation. People don't wear heavy jackets or leather coats on their heads.
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:11 am

HootmonSccy wrote:The thing that most of these reports do not take into account is Region of the shooting related to caliber...
I would carry a .380 in Florida Year round, but probably (if other choices available) would not carry a .380 in the north during the winter when people are wearing multiple layers and leather coats.
So weather and region play a definite part in what caliber is reasonable to carry in an area...
Of course, in Florida, you can still run into a 6'7" 300# person which may make a smaller have lesser effect, but since most people wear light clothing 97% of the year due to the warm climate, a smaller caliber MAY be sufficient.
There is a consideration when carrying in a hot and humid climate that a smaller gun may be more comfortable and may be carried more consistently regardless of heat or lighter clothing options.


This is always in the back of my mind as well. But after seeing the performance of FMJ or cast lead bullets and the penetration they have in soft targets, I don't see a problem even in the smaller calibers. And clothes are still just added fluff. Plus we can just change the area we aim for, the head instead of center of mass. But then we may not have the option, I would say we won't have it due to the nature of attacks, of where we can place the shots. But I still say documented reports and trusted tests show we are overthinking it.

But then again, I don't even think it matters. Criminals are lazy and cowards. They look for easy targets. They intimate their target wanting the upper hand and playing on fear of their target. Even with having numbers on their side, when their target presence firearm they run. They are not thinking about caliber power factors or wondering what brand of ammo their targets are using, they just know IT HURTS to be shot! They know it means having to go to the ER and the police being called if treated. They move, at high speed, on to another easy target. Thugs aren't highly trained, they just practice a single script or being loud and threatening. And when their bluff is called, they run.

But after saying all of this, I'm with you on your thinking as well. I carry my full size revolvers in 357 Magnum or 1911s in 45ACP when I have a heavier cover garment. And I try to choose these calibers in smaller compact weapons like the Shield 45 or SP101, when I can. But I don't feel uncomfortable when I just have my G42 or snubbie in my pocket either. I think the bigger calibers give me more Peace of mind if I have to take a longer shot on an active shooter or someone attacking loved one a distance from me. So maybe it's more of what we think we will face that effects our choices than the caliber or weapon? If I thought I was more or a possible candidate for a target, in would want a compact with a higher capacity over a larger caliber and low capacity. But since I'm 6'1" and between 280-300 (depending on the holiday season), I'm not worried about being a target as much as I do about an active shooter or a threat on a loved one distance away from me. Therefore I want something that will be accurate. So I choose a 3" SP101. SA option for accurate shots, and 357 mag for the energy down range for my mall walking weapon. And the G42 is in my pocket other times.

Like I have stated before, these are just ramblings of "gun guy" in the middle of the night. I respect all views, and love to exchange ideas.

Be safe :)

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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:50 am

https://youtu.be/HJDhcNtP4PM

Looks like someone was listening!
Paul is a down to earth instructor.

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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby HootmonSccy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:36 pm

Lefty Red wrote:https://youtu.be/HJDhcNtP4PM

Looks like someone was listening!
Paul is a down to earth instructor.

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Nice, but I would like to have seen the same test with a heavy winter LEATHER coat on the outside.
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby wrench459 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:29 pm

John Wick would just aim for the head. :kickback:
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:36 am

https://youtu.be/DZsxSe5oymk

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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:47 am

wrench459 wrote:John Wick would just aim for the head. :kickback:
https://youtu.be/rsuNowyCF0c

Or with a pencil.

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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:51 am

https://youtu.be/MUpfO4x8Ch8

The look on the armorer's face when Wick asks about "dessert" is priceless. LOL

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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Walnut Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:59 am

An acquaintance of mine spent a lot of time reviewing coroners autopsy reports as part of his job. When asked about bullet effectiveness his stock reply was: Shot placement is King, Penetration is Queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin. Growing up my Doctor had a reputation for not much of a bedside manner, very good a diagnostics and THE Doctor to go to with any kind of trauma or penetration wound. After I was discharged from the Army Doc Nick confided to me that he went ashore at Normandy as a medic and walked all the way to Berlin. Surprised I asked if that is where he developed his expertise with puncture wounds and he replied "Not my expertise but my interest started there. I became fascinated by the unpredictable nature of metal particles traveling through the human body. The body is composed of so many different densities of material there is no way of predicting 100% how foreign objects will react."
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby FastEddie » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:21 am

You commented: "But then again, I don't even think it matters. Criminals are lazy and cowards. They look for easy targets. They intimate their target wanting the upper hand and playing on fear of their target. Even with having numbers on their side, when their target presence firearm they run. They are not thinking about caliber power factors or wondering what brand of ammo their targets are using, they just know IT HURTS to be shot! They know it means having to go to the ER and the police being called if treated. They move, at high speed, on to another easy target. Thugs aren't highly trained, they just practice a single script or being loud and threatening. And when their bluff is called, they run"

Sorry Lefty, but you are very wrong about this. You statements may have been valid 20 years ago, but the criminal element of today is willing to fight back, has quality equipment, and is decently trained. Quite a number of studies by several law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, have verified this. But you just have to look at the news every day to verify this. Those involved in criminal activities more often fight back. Even against well armed and reasonably well trained LEO's (and SWAT teams) Every day cop versus criminal confrontations, often ending poorly for the good guys. The days of the "Saturday night special" as the criminal weapon of choice are gone. We would like to believe the average criminal has a rusty 22 caliber with 3 cartridges and has never fired it previously. Unfortunately, statistics and experience show that to be magical thinking in most cases. The criminal element is well armored and well trained, many have spent more time on the range than your average LEO. This is especially true in gang element. Hollywood would life us to believe that new gang members are handed a pistol and a mission. Gang members are mentored, crimes are planned, shootings are rehearsed. If criminals ran a the sight of a firearm there would be no police woundings or fatalities. Additionally, the level of arrogance, machismo, and invulnerability among perps has continued to rise.Recent high profile events show. The Fergson MO case, where an unarmed thug continued to charge a police officer, even continuing when the police officer kept firing at him. Trayvon Martin kept pounding away despite a 9mm in his face.
Far too many people are carrying a firearm thinking they just have to wave it a bit and the criminal will pee themselves. The evidence indicates this is not true.
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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:11 am

FastEddie wrote:You commented: "But then again, I don't even think it matters. Criminals are lazy and cowards. They look for easy targets. They intimate their target wanting the upper hand and playing on fear of their target. Even with having numbers on their side, when their target presence firearm they run. They are not thinking about caliber power factors or wondering what brand of ammo their targets are using, they just know IT HURTS to be shot! They know it means having to go to the ER and the police being called if treated. They move, at high speed, on to another easy target. Thugs aren't highly trained, they just practice a single script or being loud and threatening. And when their bluff is called, they run"

Sorry Lefty, but you are very wrong about this. You statements may have been valid 20 years ago, but the criminal element of today is willing to fight back, has quality equipment, and is decently trained. Quite a number of studies by several law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, have verified this. But you just have to look at the news every day to verify this. Those involved in criminal activities more often fight back. Even against well armed and reasonably well trained LEO's (and SWAT teams) Every day cop versus criminal confrontations, often ending poorly for the good guys. The days of the "Saturday night special" as the criminal weapon of choice are gone. We would like to believe the average criminal has a rusty 22 caliber with 3 cartridges and has never fired it previously. Unfortunately, statistics and experience show that to be magical thinking in most cases. The criminal element is well armored and well trained, many have spent more time on the range than your average LEO. This is especially true in gang element. Hollywood would life us to believe that new gang members are handed a pistol and a mission. Gang members are mentored, crimes are planned, shootings are rehearsed. If criminals ran a the sight of a firearm there would be no police woundings or fatalities. Additionally, the level of arrogance, machismo, and invulnerability among perps has continued to rise.Recent high profile events show. The Fergson MO case, where an unarmed thug continued to charge a police officer, even continuing when the police officer kept firing at him. Trayvon Martin kept pounding away despite a 9mm in his face.
Far too many people are carrying a firearm thinking they just have to wave it a bit and the criminal will pee themselves. The evidence indicates this is not true.
No, I stand by my statement. In fact I think criminals of yore has more balls than the spinless thugs of today. We have been feed a plate of bullshit that we are going to be attacked by hordes of hoodies and that we need to carry 100 rounds to save our families.

As civilian CCW permit holders, our roles are very different than LEOs. I'm no sheepdog! My family is my main concern. I use situation awareness over anything else. I'm not busting down doors anymore. Nor retaking galleries with batons and shields. In those situations, yes criminals are pretty bad ass! But not when it comes to scoring what in a purse or your wallet. They want easy targets, and they know of several more easy targets besides someone that one person that is aware of their surrounding and not playing on their phone.

We are sold this thinking by "experts" with tattoos and beards, promising that their "new" technique with give us the edge we need. And that we need at least 20 rounds and two weapon on us at all times. When basic training and situational awareness will do.

Lefty

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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:16 am

FastEddie wrote:You commented: "But then again, I don't even think it matters. Criminals are lazy and cowards. They look for easy targets. They intimate their target wanting the upper hand and playing on fear of their target. Even with having numbers on their side, when their target presence firearm they run. They are not thinking about caliber power factors or wondering what brand of ammo their targets are using, they just know IT HURTS to be shot! They know it means having to go to the ER and the police being called if treated. They move, at high speed, on to another easy target. Thugs aren't highly trained, they just practice a single script or being loud and threatening. And when their bluff is called, they run"

Sorry Lefty, but you are very wrong about this. You statements may have been valid 20 years ago, but the criminal element of today is willing to fight back, has quality equipment, and is decently trained. Quite a number of studies by several law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, have verified this. But you just have to look at the news every day to verify this. Those involved in criminal activities more often fight back. Even against well armed and reasonably well trained LEO's (and SWAT teams) Every day cop versus criminal confrontations, often ending poorly for the good guys. The days of the "Saturday night special" as the criminal weapon of choice are gone. We would like to believe the average criminal has a rusty 22 caliber with 3 cartridges and has never fired it previously. Unfortunately, statistics and experience show that to be magical thinking in most cases. The criminal element is well armored and well trained, many have spent more time on the range than your average LEO. This is especially true in gang element. Hollywood would life us to believe that new gang members are handed a pistol and a mission. Gang members are mentored, crimes are planned, shootings are rehearsed. If criminals ran a the sight of a firearm there would be no police woundings or fatalities. Additionally, the level of arrogance, machismo, and invulnerability among perps has continued to rise.Recent high profile events show. The Fergson MO case, where an unarmed thug continued to charge a police officer, even continuing when the police officer kept firing at him. Trayvon Martin kept pounding away despite a 9mm in his face.
Far too many people are carrying a firearm thinking they just have to wave it a bit and the criminal will pee themselves. The evidence indicates this is not true.
https://youtu.be/AK4h_7YZHWE
My favorite video! Harden gang of killers knocking of a store thwarted by a j frame weilding g'ma!


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Re: 380 or 9MM - OR?

Postby Lefty Red » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:45 am

Walnut Red wrote:An acquaintance of mine spent a lot of time reviewing coroners autopsy reports as part of his job. When asked about bullet effectiveness his stock reply was: Shot placement is King, Penetration is Queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin. Growing up my Doctor had a reputation for not much of a bedside manner, very good a diagnostics and THE Doctor to go to with any kind of trauma or penetration wound. After I was discharged from the Army Doc Nick confided to me that he went ashore at Normandy as a medic and walked all the way to Berlin. Surprised I asked if that is where he developed his expertise with puncture wounds and he replied "Not my expertise but my interest started there. I became fascinated by the unpredictable nature of metal particles traveling through the human body. The body is composed of so many different densities of material there is no way of predicting 100% how foreign objects will react."
Sage advice, no matter what time we are in.

I had an ME tell me, about the new bullet designs and alloy make up, that they are just like pet food in a way. The prettier the bullet, then the more affective it has to be in the "pet owner's" eye. Just like the more pet food looks good to humans then it's has to be better for Fluffy and Gigi.

But just like the human body isn't made up of ballistic gelatin, you can't expect even today's crop of bullets to be 100% reliable nor offer 100% stops.

Lefty

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